Curse

Mushroom · Sep 21, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

There have been several posts here about where to buy their computer parts, or where to buy their new computer. And invariably, a lot of the people refer people to either "Big Name" dealers like Dell, or on-line retailers like New Egg.

Myself, I always refer people to their local mom & pop retailers. One reason why I do this is because that is where I work. And I honestly believe that I can build a better system then Dell, New Egg, HP, or Compaq. And I can do it for a better price.

However, I know that for every one like me, there is another one that is the opposite. This is the computer store that is run by the shady people, who simply want to foist off cheap junk, and scam the customer with overpriced items they do not want or need.

I am writing this, in the hopes of educating people what to look for when they walk into their local computer store.

1. Word of mouth references. Ask your friends and family who they have gone to and who they recommend. For most small stores, this is the bulk of their advertising. They let their service and quality speak for themselves. Also find out where they would not go and why. This can prevent you from being taken by the bad dealers.

2. Cleanliness and Organization: Now this is a small local business, not a big box like Circus City or Comp-WhoAreYou. Do not expect shiny glass and chrome surfaces and rows upon rows of new computers ready to walk out the door with. On the other hand, it should be nbeat and orderly for the most part. After all, you do not want them to loose your equipment.

3. Selection. Now do not expect a large selection, but there should be at least 3 or 4 different brands of most components available. This is expecially important for items like Motherboards, Cases, and accessories. Be cautious if they only offer 1 choice for most components. Also be cautious if their new stock is all held in a back room. It should be clearly displayed in the customer area.

4. Prices clearly marked. Be very cautious of any store that does not clearly mark it's prices. Sadly, I see this in almost half of the computer stores I go into. They often work on the "What they buyer can bear" philosophy of selling. If the customer looks rich (or naive), they charge more then they would to somebody else. Avoid such places.

5. Ask about warranties. This is especially important if you are buying a new processor. All CPU makers sell their chips in two ways: OEM and Retail Boxed. OEM chips are shipped with just the chip, no cooling fan. They also come with a 30-90 day warranty. Retail box sets however come with a factory approved CPU cooler, and a 3 year warranty. Retail may cost $20-30 more, but once you factor in the price of the CPU cooler, retail is always a better buy.

Good quality motherboards will have a warranty ranging from 1-3 years. If it is less then they, they are probably selling low-quality boards. And while the builder warranty may vary, most should offer at least 30-90 days on their labor. And ask, many will offer a full 1 year warranty for an additional charge.

6. Check the items they sell. Write down some of the manufacturers and models they sell, and do come checking. Most stores will offer a range of motherboards, from $60-150. Some of the better names in the business are Asus, MSI, AsRock, Tyan, and GigaByte. If most of their stock is in companies like Mercury, Epox, PC-Chips (also known as PC-100 and PC-Tech), avoid them. These are all low-quality manufacturers that are favored of stores that sell computers with no warranty, simply hoping to make a fast buck.

7. Avoid "Motherboard-CPU combos". If one is offered to you, look closely. One trick a lot of low-end companies do is to solder on a low-end processor to a motherboard, and overclock it. Most of these have a lifespan of around 6 months, and sell for under $100. Others sell a decent motherboard, but with an OEM chip and cheap aftermarket CPU cooler. Make sure that any combo is a seperate motherboard, with a Retail BOX CPU.

8. Check the cases. Be cautious if the cases are mostly beige boxes. The majority of these have poor cooling, and poor quality power supplies. And because the industry has moved away from these in the last several years, they can also be old stock they are trying to get away from. Make sure the case they recommend has at least a 350 watt power supply, and at least 2 fans (one blowing across where the hard drive will go). Make sure that if they build it, that all of the fans are inserted in the finished computer. I call fans "Cheap Insurance", because a $10 fan can save hundreds of dollars in premature failure.

9. Overstocking items. Look to see if they have huge stacks of new components in stock. Most computer stores work on a small profit margin, so avoid this tactic. But others often order large quantities because it is a "deal". What this means is that they will not order any replacements until the current stock is sold. This is a problem, because you often find yourself buying a "brand new" item that is already 2-4 years old (at the price it sold for 2-4 years ago). I have seen stores with "brand new" Pentium III motherboards selling for $120. And "Brand New" AMD motherboards, which took PC-133 and Duron processors for $110. Make sure you really are buying current technology, not the technology of 2 years ago if you are buying new. That same $110-120 can get you a good quality motherboard that takes either an LGA-775 or AM2 processor, with DDR2 RAM.

10. Ask questions. Feel free to ask questions about what they stock, and why. Just like anything else (cars, TVs, music), we all have our preferences. Most will prefer ATI or NVidia, AMD or Intel. And their stock will often reflect this. But beware of somebody that "bashes" the other major brands. AMD and Intel are both on par with each other (Via is a tad lower on the list, but still a good chip - if a bit overpriced for what it is). NVidia and ATI are also on par with each other for quality and performance. If they tell customers that competetors are junk, be careful.

Now here are a few tips on things to ask when you decide on where to go:

1. Complete custom or pre-built? Some stores (like where I work at) pre-build custom models. This is either done to save time (for high-volume stores), or to give a display model of what their finished products look like. Usually, there is nothing wrong with a floor-model like this, since they are rarely more then a few weeks old. But make sure it is current technology (LGA-775 or AM2). Otherwise, you are buying last-generation equipment (unless they are giving it at a good price).

2. Used computers? Some stores also sell used computers. If they do, make sure that they are Corporate models, not home models. Look for models like HP Vector, Compaq Deskpro or Evo, and Dell OptiPlex. These are Corporate models, that normally last 6+ years. Avoid Presario, Pavilion, and DImension. These normally have a lifespan of 1-3 years, and are most of the way through that by the time it makes it to used sales. And make sure that you get at least a 60-90 day warranty with a used system.

3. What to have built? Having a computer custom built can be a daunting decision for some people. If you are not sure what to get, have a friend that is more knowledgeable come along. A good "Computer Builder" will give you plenty of options, and try to stear you towards what fits your needs best. But beware: some will try to sell you the most expensive things they have. For the most part, a system to play GW should normally cost from $700-1,000. But the more you put into it, the more it will cost. If they try to tell you that you need an ATI x1950 video card, a 4 GHz processor, and 2 gigs of RAM, you might want to try to find another store.

And finally, what I consider one of the most important parts:

UPGRADE!

Remember, a custom built computer should be a continual work in progress. One of the beauties is that you can start off small, and build it up even more over time. You can start with 1 Gig RAM now, and add a second Gig (or more) when Vista comes out. You can get an X550 video card now for around $85, then get the nice fancy x1950 in about 6 months, when the price has dropped. I tell people that they should plan on spending 10-20% of the value of their computer every year for upgrades.

At that rate, a computer should never be obsolete. Because within 3-5 years, you are essientially replacing it. By spending $1000 this year, this gives you $150-200 next year for more RAM and a copy of Vista. The next year you can spend another $150-200 for new hard drive, maybe that all-in-one printer-scanner you had your eye on. The next year, your processor and motherboard will start to get outdated, so it is time to upgrade that (by 2009, we will probably be at around 5-6 GHz and DDR3 RAM).

The biggest problem I see with upgrades is that most people simply wait to long. If you wait more then 3 years, you are normally so far the technology curve that you are better off starting new then upgrading. Since 2003 we have gone from PC-133 to DDR and now DDR2. Socket A and Prescot have been replaced by LGA-775 for Intel, or 754/939, and now AM2 for AMD. AGP has been replaced by PCI Express. Even the venerable IDE has finally been replaced with SATA hard drives.

But before you pick up the phone to call Dell, Gateway or New Egg, check what the local stores have to offer. You may be amazed at the selection and quality available right in your own hometown. I live and work in a small town in SE Alabama, yet I can build a computer that will beat a new Dell XPS, for 1/2-2/3 the cost of the Dell. And the same story is true around the world. Plus I can offer something none of them can: local service. YOu are not stuck talking to India or Philippines of you call me for help. ANd you simply drive over and drop it off, you do not have to wait 2-5 days for an appointment, nor have to box up your computer and send it across the country for service.

Mushroom · Sep 21, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

And no, I will not build a computer for anybody in here. That is, unless you live within a driving radius of my store. I am not doing this as a way to get business, as much as to encourage people to "buy local".

When a "Big Box" store like Wal-Mart or Best Buy moves into town, we are not worried. We may see some loss in sales, but within 1-2 years see an increase in service work as these models start to die. The biggest threat is actually the retailers like New Egg, who will sell anything they have available, reguardless of quality. You would not believe the number of calls I get from people wanting "Free Technical Support", from stuff they bought from New Egg.

It has gotten to the point where I simply instruct those people to call New Egg for support, or bring it in for me to work on. But New Egg does not provide technical support, they are only a sales company. And they do not stand behind their products. They will sell you a cheap soldered-on CPU/Motherboard combination, and will do nothing if it dies after 3 months. It is not their responsibility after that.

B Ephekt · Sep 21, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

The reason most people who know what they're talking about refer others to NewEgg or Dell is that Mom & Pop shops simply can't compete in terms of price and selection. Someone who knows enough to build their own system can get a much better deal, and ultimately build a better system for a similar cost to what they would get at a local retailer. Your average computer owner's needs can generally be met with a pre-built system from the likes of Dell, Compaq or the like, and still get a better price and warranty than any Mom & Pop shop can offer.

I know those little local places are good for some things, but there is a huge difference between NewEgg being able to order thousands of units of a given product and the ~10 your local shop probably orders. Local shops simply can't compete in terms of price per quality due to this.

Mushroom · Sep 21, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

The reason most people who know what they're talking about refer others to NewEgg or Dell is that Mom & Pop shops simply can't compete in terms of price and selection.

I know those little local places are good for some things, but there is a huge difference between NewEgg being able to order thousands of units of a given product and the ~10 your local shop probably orders. Local shops simply can't compete in terms of price per quality due to this.

I would debate you on that any time. In fact, for the most part our prices are within $5-10 of New Egg. I just priced our $649 system (AM2 Sempron 2800) with identicle parts from New Egg. The difference was less then $35. And that was with the "Free 3 day shipping". 2nd Day shipping, the price was within $1. If you want next day, we are actually cheaper by $25. And everything we have is on-hand, you can walk out the door with it now.

And if you are shopping by price, it becomes an issue of "you get what you pay for". We can build systems for $300, but we choose not to. The quality of the components is so poor that we are unable to stand behind them. In fact, the common buyer spends over $800 buying a system from Dell. Most small retailers can build a much better system for that kind of money.

I saw a system today, a brand new XPS. 3.4 GHz, 200 Gig SATA drive, 1 year warranty. The guy paid $1,295 for it. I could have built one identicle for under $1,000, and that would have included a 1 year warranty (his came with a 90 day warranty - which is the standard now. The 1 year warranty was extra). In fact, if you read the fine print, every Dell comes with "1 year tech support". Do not confuse "Tech Support" with "Warranty" - the warranty is only 90 days standard. After 90 days, the tech support is only good for telling you that you are hosed.

And have you ever tried to call "Tech Support" for Dell (or any other major seller)? There are web pages full of horror stories. Long waits for parts/service, systems lost begin sent back for service, talking to incomprehensible phone banks overseas. If your part from New Egg arrives dead (or dies within the first month), you get to go through the wonderful world of RMA. If that happens from your local reseller, they commonly give you a replacement, and do the RMA themselves. And most RMA service takes from 3-8 weeks+.

However, it is true about selection. But with our supplier giving us overnight shipping standard, we can get most anything within 24 hours. Most small stores sell the things that they sell the most of. They also tend to sell items that they have worked with and trust. You will not find SIS or Pine video cards on our shelves. We also do not sell systems with Celeron processors, PC-Chips motherboards, or the $50 "Beige Box" cases of 5 years ago. Our minimum wattage power supply is 350 watts. You should see what comes in the standard Dell or HP. Then talk to me about quality and value.

I have been in this industry for over 20 years. Most small stores are staffed by people with 5-10+ years experience. To us, computers are a real-world issue we deal with all the time. We work on everything from your grandmother's 233 that she only uses for e-mail, to the TV-Recording Studio that needs a $10,000 system for editing.

And I am not talking about only buying from local stores. Some places simply do not have good local stores. All I am saying is that people should consider it more often. Because they may be surprised by what is available in their own home town.

B Ephekt · Sep 21, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroom

I would debate you on that any time. In fact, for the most part our prices are within $5-10 of New Egg. I just priced our $649 system (AM2 Sempron 2800) with identicle parts from New Egg. The difference was less then $35. And that was with the "Free 3 day shipping". 2nd Day shipping, the price was within $1. If you want next day, we are actually cheaper by $25. And everything we have is on-hand, you can walk out the door with it now.

Odd that every time I've priced local shops and online retailers like NewEgg, the online stores usually win in selection and price.

Quote:

In fact, the common buyer spends over $800 buying a system from Dell.

I see weekly deals on the web for Dells with monitors and sometimes printers for under $500. (Granted these are not top of the line systems, but they're shipping with dual core processors, a decent sized HD and enough RAM for the average user.) I seriously doubt most local shops can match those due to their overhead and profit-per-sale restrictions.

Quote:

I saw a system today, a brand new XPS.

XPS systems are pretty overpriced. Generally any prebuilt system targeted towards gamers will be overpriced, everyone knows that. I only mentioned Dell in the context of the average users who will check email and use the internet.

Quote:

In fact, if you read the fine print, every Dell comes with "1 year tech support". Do not confuse "Tech Support" with "Warranty" - the warranty is only 90 days standard. After 90 days, the tech support is only good for telling you that you are hosed.

As the owner of 2 Dell monitors, I'm well aware of how Dell support works. Despite what the rabid anti-Dell fanboys would have you believe, their support isn't all that bad. I've dealt with them for my two monitors and the system I bought for my sister. I know for a fact that I would've had a good bit more trouble with my monitors had I purchased them locally, and the repair on my sister's computer seriously took one 15 minute phone call.

Quote:

If your part from New Egg arrives dead (or dies within the first month), you get to go through the wonderful world of RMA. If that happens from your local reseller, they commonly give you a replacement, and do the RMA themselves. And most RMA service takes from 3-8 weeks+.

Not all stores do that, though. In the (probably) 4-5 years I've dealt with NewEgg, I think I've had maybe two cases where an RMA was required, and neither took more than a few days. I guess you've never actually done an RMA with NewEgg before?

Quote:

Our minimum wattage power supply is 350 watts. You should see what comes in the standard Dell or HP. Then talk to me about quality and value.

Wattage is a pretty poor measure of PSU quality. In fact, nobody worth their salt will look at wattage when deciding what PSU to use for a certain build as it's only an inflated aggergate number measured across all rails. Ideally you would take into account how many AMPs each component will draw, and look at the AMPs being output on the +12v rail(s) to decide on your PSU. And generally, this is the reason I stear away from most local places - their idea of good is "it's got 350 watts man!". A+ certs FTL.

Quote:

I have been in this industry for over 20 years. Most small stores are staffed by people with 5-10+ years experience. To us, computers are a real-world issue we deal with all the time. We work on everything from your grandmother's 233 that she only uses for e-mail, to the TV-Recording Studio that needs a $10,000 system for editing.

That's great but I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate with this statement. I mean no offense to you personally, but most small computer shops I've been to employ teenagers/college kids who have little to no real world experience in anything other than home PC repair.

Anyway, I don't mean to come off as having something against the little guys, but I still think most consumers would be better served from Dell/HP, or building their own system if they know how.

Mushroom · Oct 25, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Odd that every time I've priced local shops and online retailers like NewEgg, the online stores usually win in selection and price.

There is a difference between "selection" and "quality". Sure on-line companies have more selection. But there are a lot of brands that we will not even allow on our shelf.

Come into our store, and you will not find any "PC Chips" or "Mercury" motherboards. You will not find any OEM CPUs. We also do not offer VIA CPUs, Epox motherboards, Compaq Presarios, or "budget line" 350 watt power supplies.

Everything we sell is something we trust, and are willing to stand behind. There are a lot of brands that we have dropped over the years, because of poor quality. Gigabyte used to be our major selling motherboard, until the "exploding cap" problems of 3 years ago. We no longer recommend them, because of quality control issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I see weekly deals on the web for Dells with monitors and sometimes printers for under $500. (Granted these are not top of the line systems, but they're shipping with dual core processors, a decent sized HD and enough RAM for the average user.) I seriously doubt most local shops can match those due to their overhead and profit-per-sale restrictions.

Actually, we can match them. I have actually priced it out, and we can sell brand new systems for under $400. But we refuse to do so. We can build systems with PC Chips motherboards, with soldered on CPUs. Sure, they are cheap, only $60 for a 2.8 GHz CPU and Motherboard. But the quality is coprolite, and they die after about a year (or less).

But we value our reputation to much to ruin it by selling garbage like that. In fact, recently one of the "local sellers" that buys from us wanted us to order some for him. We would not even do that.

But New Egg has no problem with that. They will willingly sell you garbage, and smile as they take your money.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813185073

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

I know for a fact that I would've had a good bit more trouble with my monitors had I purchased them locally, and the repair on my sister's computer seriously took one 15 minute phone call.
Not all stores do that, though. In the (probably) 4-5 years I've dealt with NewEgg, I think I've had maybe two cases where an RMA was required, and neither took more than a few days. I guess you've never actually done an RMA with NewEgg before?

I have delt with NewEgg a few times. There are times where we need to get an item that none of our wholesales deals with. In fact, the last time was a few months ago, when we needed a Thermaltake Big Water cooling system. Only one of our suppliers sold them, and they were on backorder. We also used them a few months ago, because none of our suppliers had the Thermaltake Xaser III VM 2000 case that a customer wanted.

But their shipping is outrageous. We ordered a few items in bulk, and they added each shipping cost seperately to the bill. To give an idea, we ordered 10 LightScribe DVDRW drives they had on sale. The shipping was something like $6 on each item. The shipping bill was $60. We looked at the FedEX tag when it came in, and the shipping cost was less then 1/3 of that amount. They happily pocketed the other $40, and that was the last time we bought anything from them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Anyway, I don't mean to come off as having something against the little guys, but I still think most consumers would be better served from Dell/HP, or building their own system if they know how.

I agree with you. In fact, almost half of our new sales is to people that do it themselves. We sell to kids who want to build their "dream system", and we sell to other smaller computer builders. There are 4 guys that come in once a week that sell at local flea markets. They don't do the volume to buy directly from suppliers and wholesalers, so we do it for them.

We also do a fair amount of custom ordering for people. We get all our orders next-day, and with very little mark-up because we order so much. In fact, we normally contact 2-3 different suppliers, and have them bid against each other! And there is no "sliding scale" in our pricing. We actually make the same amount of profit on a Sempron 2600 that we do on a E6800. The Asrock $60 motherboard gives us the same profit as the Asus Deluxe on the next shelf.

But I know every store is not willing to do that. That is why I just ask people to shop around and look before sending their money away from their local community. There are 8 stores in my area, and only 2 of them work the way we do.

And we are not all kids. I have actually been in this industry for over 26 years, and building and working on PCs for over 20. I have my MCSE and Novell certs, and have worked for Fortune 50 companies. But I prefer the environment of a small store, where I can meet and help my customers.

And when you think about it, how old was Bill Gates, or Steve & Steve when they started Apple? One of our "part timers" started here when he was 16, and he grew up with computers. He is actually the one that helped bring me "up to speed" on what a lot of the graphics requirements for games were when I got back into the retail side a few years ago.